Maria Dolgopolova: Yes, hello.
Listener: My name is Anya, I'm 44 years old, I grew up in a family of alcoholics. Unfortunately, it so happened that both my dad and mom are alcoholics. In this regard, I would probably like to ask a question, is it somehow related to the fact that in my adult life I have already chosen a partner who is also an alcoholic for the second time?
Olga Zaitseva: How should we answer? Yes, thank you. Anya, a very timely and relevant question because, in my opinion, this is one of the first signs that... I'll talk about myself, referring to "we" because I am also an adult child of an alcoholic father, and yes, we tend to choose people somehow connected with addiction. Because one of the signs, as you probably heard, is co-dependent behavior. Why does this happen? Because on some non-verbal level, we pick up certain character traits, or what psychologists call behavior patterns, and they are perceived by us as something familiar, something native, something understandable, with which I can somehow cope.
And here comes a big confusion because, in reality, this is not the experience we actually need in a loving relationship, but we perceive it as very familiar, resonant.
I even had such an example; I didn’t understand this before. I was in a group discussing romantic relationships, and out of all the participants, I thought: "Oh, I like him." Moreover, I felt something like trembling before him, like a rabbit before a boa constrictor, there was something familiar in this man, and it seemed to draw me to him. I even chose women friends who were somehow connected with some kind of addiction, well, now I understand what I was reacting to.
And when this man began to speak, he said yes. But he had not an alcohol addiction; he had a drug addiction in remission. And out of everyone, I picked this person based on some non-verbal markers.
But later, when I delved deeper and analyzed, I realized that I was afraid of him. In reality, he made me feel scared. But since I was used to coping with this fear in my childhood by constantly fearing, for example, my father, but needing to stay in this family, I detached this fear and somehow coped with it. As if converting it into love, into some kind of warmth, into some kind of relationship, to endure it. And this broken radar seems to have fixed itself for life. Out of everyone, I will choose the one who has some addiction in their history as the most attractive.
But now, since I have worked through it, I understand that I am more afraid of this person, I am frightened by him, and now I “catch” this fear, but before, it was as if it was a kind of sympathy or even erotic attraction. So, yes, we are prone to co-dependent behavior, co-dependent behavior can manifest in rescuing, it can manifest in some sympathy, in pity for those who suffer from this pathogenic disease, and we have some interest in it because we know how to deal with it. We detach our fear, detach our aggression, and create relationships with a person somehow connected with this addiction.
And unfortunately, until we work through this, like I did, I can speak for myself, in the psychologist's office I wouldn’t have learned to separate, after all, that this is actually fear. That I will never save... And my husband, in fact, also suffered from various addictions. But it seemed to me that he didn’t drink like my father did, and it was quite bearable.
At that time, I told myself that my children’s parents were much better than my parents were. But this is also a bit of a trap because adult children of alcoholics also suffer from a certain tolerance to addiction. That is, they don’t quite understand where a lot of drinking is, where a little drinking is, where alcoholism is.
And I even noticed when people coming to me for consultations say: “Well, don’t think, he wasn’t an alcoholic, he just drinks, well, he can’t stop.” Well, and somehow explain, defending their parents. I don’t know if I answered the question correctly, well, maybe, Masha, you can say something that resonates with you.
Maria Dolgopolova: I can add to that. I actually wanted to say similar things, but I usually describe them for myself and my clients in slightly different terms. And this is indeed an interesting point. There were two studies, one of them, unfortunately, American, so we don’t know the results for the Russian sample. But one study measured the types of attachments in the population: how many people have a secure type of attachment, how many have anxious, avoidant, or disorganized types of attachment. And interestingly, according to this large statistical survey, there are quite a few people with a secure type of attachment. I'll provide a link in the comments about this topic of attachment types. We won't go deep into it now.
But nevertheless, there's an interesting thing that even if the problem isn’t chemical dependency but some other dysfunctionality in the family, children growing up in such a family acquire a certain tolerance for adversity, a tolerance for destructive communication. A tolerance for some unpleasant, unfavorable treatment.
Because if our parents allowed themselves such behavior towards us, then later we don’t consider it something extraordinary. For our psyche, it becomes a normal, ordinary experience. Moreover, a special attraction to people with similar traits arises. That is, if our parents were elusive, maybe not intentionally elusive to their children, they were just emotionally unstable due to their alcoholism or other reasons like personality disorders, depression, or something else. Then we ourselves, in adulthood, will be drawn to people who behave a bit unstable, unpredictably. Indeed, people with some similar traumatic experiences seem very familiar to us.
My clients, and I myself, know this story, not because I am a child from a family of alcoholics, but because there was a lot of interesting stuff in my family, too. We can feel incredible boredom next to people from prosperous families. Just incredible. We don’t want to have sex immediately. There are no intrigues, no inspiration. What to go into a relationship for is unclear. It’s all insanely boring and unclear how to get through it. And this is the feeling that is evoked by people who are consistent, predictable, good partners for relationships with that very notorious secure type of attachment. But if we have something different in our experience, some kind of emotional extreme with parents and other relatives, it’s just unbearable. And indeed, it takes a very long path in therapy, or not necessarily in therapy, to get interested in something other than elusive, rejecting men, who after all this mystery, it turns out in three years, are drug addicts or alcoholics. Or have some other such under-the-rug secrets.
And indeed, yes, it is a big problem, and it is something that can motivate one to step on this path.
When I was still digging into the differences between adult children of alcoholics and, for example, people with borderline personality disorder (BPD) who don’t have a history of parental alcoholism, it seems to me in my practice over 11-13 years, people who came with such BPD symptoms without a history of chemical dependency, they still much more often... I don’t know how to describe it.
It’s probably presumptuous to say that such people much more often start and finish therapy. But I want to clarify that in this story about co-dependence, ACA, and all the rest, there is a big temptation to not start working through it. That is, at a subconscious level, maybe periodically realizing that yes, this is a problem, this is somehow not very good.
But very often people, especially if they themselves... For example, if both of their parents drank, but they themselves didn’t start drinking in adulthood. Somehow they managed to get by without it. And on the one hand, it’s a big deal that they themselves don’t practice any chemical dependency. But this further path of some personal restructuring, not many people decide to step on it at all.
And I think this is a separate big dilemma, that there seems to be a pre-awareness of wanting to improve something in their life and understanding that something was broken, and it’s not very clear what, and the path of recovery seems long. But at the same time, it is such a problem that paradoxically, people very often choose to stay with it. And I even have the experience that people specifically from families with dependencies chose in their improvement, in their therapy to reach a certain point of improvement. And then they said, “I’m just not ready. This little swamp suits me.”
And with no other type of clients did I have this. That is, I didn’t have a client with a borderline organization who improves to a certain point and then consciously says, “I’m not ready to crawl further along this path.” But here, indeed, people sometimes, when they saw the whole picture, sometimes give it out as a conscious personal choice. That “I managed to do this, but further, sorry, I’m not ready. I understand that more can be done, but that’s it. A lot has already been done.” And this is, of course, such a tricky place.
Olga Zaitseva: I'm just thinking, what could this be related to? Because, well, if we think about adult children of parents with addictions... What do they come to me for in psychology? Nobody comes with the experience saying, "I had such an experience." Usually, they come with issues like difficulties in relationships, impossibilities, breakups, running away. Many come with anxiety, overwhelming anxiety, which, if we look at their history, has roots... And it might not even be related to alcoholism, it's some kind of symptomatology...
And it turns out, there's this expectation that "now I'll go through therapy and become some kind of normal, happy person." And this anticipation of some hope. You know, I'm just thinking about what I would encounter myself and why I would stop, as an adult child of an alcoholic. There are certain moments, Masha, when I realize that I will never be neurotypical. That is, there are some organic disturbances in the functioning of the cerebral cortex because, for example, my father suffered from alcoholism. Mine aren't that severe. My brother, who was born five years after me, has them more pronounced. That is, his alcoholism had already progressed. And this could be Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), it could be something else... Well, for example, my brother exhibits pathological behavior. He has completely destructive, antisocial behavior. He is antisocial.
And I think that, recognizing this organic disorder, I understand, for example, that it’s serotonin since childhood, I have a serotonin deficiency, and my depressive state is likely from birth. And for adult children of alcoholics, it might be some kind of organic issue, and then I face the impossibility of ever being as happy as people with ordinary neuroses or fairly healthy people. And it’s a difficult place to work further, realizing that I adapt, but truly feeling some kind of joy, love, like, supposedly, people without these disturbances never will.
And it's very hard to step over this to stay in therapy. Recognizing this part, I grieve that I will always be in deficit in some relationships with parents. I will never get this from any partner, with any partner. And it seems to me that when the premonition of this inaccessibility begins, a break happens. Well, then why do I need therapy if happiness is impossible? Well, to put it simply. And then I’d rather live with some kind of hypercompensation, hope, or striving for something. Well, in my case, it was hypercompensation related to grandiosity, that I was somehow special, with magical thinking.
And now I understand that I actually still have a lot of ADHD symptomatology. When I sit and there are noises everywhere, it’s very hard for me to focus, and anxiety starts to overwhelm me. And I will most likely live with this forever. It's unlikely to disappear through therapy. I don’t know, that’s my hypothesis. What do you think about what I'm saying?
Yes, it’s probably a big difficulty, and maybe if we voice this now, it will not seem so scary to people (to those who hear it) what happiness is.
Maria Dolgopolova: No, I wasn’t implying any accusations, like people not completing therapy. No, that wasn't the subtext. Really, if we talk about what most often brought people to me, I would divide it into two categories. They mostly came, so to speak, regarding their partner, either as a couple or individually. And then there were indeed many desires to become different in relationships with the partner, and through this, perhaps either improve the relationship with this person or at least calm themselves down about what is happening. And truly, sometimes people reached a point in therapy where certain things with this partner became completely impossible. And generally, in principle, to realize oneself in a different direction, it seemed like one shouldn't be with this partner and live this life. But honestly, people often made the choice that, "Well, yes, for some hypothetical continuation of improvement, indeed, it would be necessary to realize something else. And perhaps even end these relationships." But in fact, there was no such readiness and desire, for example. So, the person was more ready to accept what is, better understanding the limitations that exist. And this, too, in my opinion, if we speak in psychoanalytic terms, is a kind of closure of internal conflicts. Because if a person is in some unfavorable relationship, they see that they have some conflicts, some oddities that you don't even tell your best friend about because you’re embarrassed.
Well, not just in front of your best friend, but many others too. You don't want people to know all the details about what kind of relationship you're in. And then it often happens that what people come with initially is this self-torture, "How am I in such a relationship, how do I allow this for myself, how did this happen to me?" And then, when you start unraveling this, the person understands why they need it, why they arranged everything like this, and there’s a real acknowledgment of the unwillingness to look for another type of person. And in this place, the internal conflict closes because people stop hurting themselves. They say, yes, my partner, of course, we won’t talk about him at a party, but I’ve understood myself, how this happened in my life. Well, that’s one story. I'll tell the second one later.
Olga Zaitseva: Yes, you’re talking about some kind of acknowledgment that “this is the attraction available to me, that this is the feeling of love available to me, and whatever dreams I have about another partner, I won’t feel this with them.” Well, it’s like that, yes. "I am made this way, my love is like this. And I choose."
Listener: Thank you so much for responding. It turned out that I start to justify someone, even finding pluses in alcoholics. For me, alcoholism exists in two forms, as I just realized. In my family, there were aggressive alcoholics who beat me in childhood. And there was a completely calm alcoholic—my dad, who was just... I still love him very much. Well, probably, judging by what I heard, I chose a quiet alcoholic instead of an aggressive one in the family. Thank you for clarifying. Well, I understand some things already. I understand that because my parents were alcoholics, there are many problems in the families I created, both the first and the second time.
I choose the same type of person in a vicious circle, well, the people are different, but with the same problems. As Olga said, if you put 15 people, I would somehow choose the one who would have problems similar to those I had chosen before. I’d like to break out of this vicious circle because I already understand why this happens, although I don’t drink or smoke myself. But there are other dependencies. For example, food, where you often don’t know the measure, and you constantly want to stuff yourself with it. And, of course, almost all reasons stem from childhood. Thank you again so much. I’ll continue to listen to you with pleasure. Maybe someone else will ask some questions. But I think I’ve come to the point where it’s time to work with a psychologist to break this cycle and start choosing others, another type of man, at least to see another type next to me, because honestly, I don’t even see this other type.
Maria Dolgopolova: Thank you for your response!
