Maria Dolgopolova: How would you describe what’s happening in your field? And also, for the listeners, describe what this field is.
Elena Novikova: This field is broadly referred to as the labor market. It starts from the moment children choose a profession in school and continue through university or some technical institute, meaning acquiring a profession. And then it extends to employment in the profession, functioning within it, and professional development. So, this is my field, from career orientation to realizing oneself in a professional activity through education.
What is happening now is a gigantic demographic pit, a truly enormous one, which has naturally led us to a stage in our lives that is close to the bottom, where the number of children reaching working age is lower than ever in the history of Russia and the Soviet Union.
Maria Dolgopolova: Is this due to the fact that there were fewer births 20 years ago?
Elena Novikova: Yes, yes. Fewer children were born.
Maria Dolgopolova: There was a sharp decline 20 years ago.
Elena Novikova: A sharp decline, yes, that’s correct. Also, we need to consider a small layer of immigrants. Many such people are among the professionally successful and financially successful individuals. Because to decide to emigrate, one must at least have skills and money. And people with skills and money are among the most successful. I wish them health, so they retain and even increase their skills and wealth wherever they are in the world.
The problem is that we have entered a period of isolation. If before we attracted people, many came to Russia...
Maria Dolgopolova: Including skilled personnel, i.e., people who would work.
Elena Novikova: Yes, yes, yes. Now, at best, we can attract residents from Central Asia who come from Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, to earn a little and then go back, sending money home. They don't plan to put down roots here. Even if they have children, even if they enroll them in schools, they still take them away later. Or they don’t take them away, but still, this is not the professional category of the labor market I work with. Although, strictly speaking, if you go to a district clinic now—I don’t know if you’ve had recent experience going...
Maria Dolgopolova: To a district one?
Elena Novikova: To a Russian district clinic. No, you should go. You won’t see a single Russian surname there.
Maria Dolgopolova: Really?
Elena Novikova: Absolutely. Just. These are diplomas obtained in Soviet times. They may be decent or they may be bought. That could also be the case. I won’t dismiss any possibility. But still, there are some professional categories where we are catastrophically short of people. We have a 70% shortage of teachers. Maria, teachers are the ones who stand at the beginning of forming a child’s worldview. By 70%. I’m talking about the needs of Central Russia, because some teachers are being drawn to new territories, formerly Ukrainian territories, which are now being populated and developing within Russia. They need teachers because there are schools there, and children who were previously taught in Ukrainian are now urgently being retrained in Russian, and salaries there are 2, 3, 4, 5 times higher compared to Central Russia. So people just go to these new territories for the money.
The same goes for doctors. How many doctors are at the front? How many doctors have been killed? As far as I know, there is also a shortage of doctors and mid-level medical staff of about 60%. These are two groups of people on whom our life and future depend. And that’s it. They are simply not there. We have doctors from Mozambique coming to work with us, and while we can’t get teachers from Somalia, still. Overall, this situation is very alarming to me.
There are also a few more features of today’s labor market situation, which ultimately result in what everyone is talking about now, from Putin to the last HR person in any company. It’s a catastrophic shortage of personnel. And it’s not quite like that. The problem is not just the lack of staff, but the absence of the type of staff that the economy needs today. And the economy needs people who will work in military enterprises. This is like gradually cutting off your own arms and legs because tomorrow, if the need for people working in the military economy ends, these people who are currently working in the defense industry will have nowhere to go because they are trained to assemble drones, because they are geared towards working in the military industry. I remember very well the period of conversion when large military enterprises produced pots or basins or other things. It was a drama not only for the specialists who worked there, not only for the leaders of these enterprises, because they had to transition from one completely different thing to another, but also a psychological drama for the people themselves because they used to produce rockets, and now they produce watering cans. And this is an extremely psychologically difficult realization of oneself as something simply meaningless.
Elena Novikova: On top of that, military technologies are lagging behind general technological development. It’s no coincidence that another segment experiencing a severe shortage of staff is IT specialists. Not only because the overwhelming majority of them have left—many were able to work remotely, or could until recently—but also because they’re not interested in working on the technological tasks required by the military-industrial complex. They want to work on the future. And this future in Russia has been turned into the present, which loudly proclaims on every corner: “We need people to produce missiles that kill and explode.” This is a very strange industry that doesn’t contribute to our future. When cars are produced, it's part of the development of an automotive segment, which, as we know, is barely developing. When people study, they do so to become specialists in the future. But when people leave school to assemble drones and don’t become specialists in anything other than drone assembly, it’s a dead-end branch of professional development.
If we freeze the current state of the labor market, in ten years, there will be no one left to work. People will either be untrained, trained in the wrong things, or they won’t be in Russia at all, either because they will be killed or because they will have left. That’s the whole labor market. It’s in a dreadful state right now.
But against this backdrop, and it’s very ironic, discrimination in hiring still persists, albeit to a much lesser extent, but it’s still there.
Maria Dolgopolova: For those who have worked in the military sector?
Elena Novikova: We still don’t hire people over 50, or if we do, it’s begrudgingly. We don’t hire women for certain professions or people with specific experience. There’s a huge list of people who cannot be fired—wives of mobilized men, women with children whose husbands have died. They might be absolutely useless professionally, but they can’t be fired.
Maria Dolgopolova: Yes, I understand.
Elena Novikova: They can’t be fired; they occupy a position that could be filled by someone who could actually contribute something useful. I sympathize with them, of course, but I also sympathize with those who can’t hire a specialist because their position is taken by someone who can’t be dismissed.
Moreover, psychologists should be well aware of the psychological issues that arise in people who have experienced the stress of participating in military operations. Adapting these people to work is a separate task. Who will do this? HR? HR, who is a former personnel officer who only knows how to fill out personnel and labor books. A person comes to work expecting special treatment but lacks the necessary skills.
The labor market—it’s not really a labor market, it’s like our population, humanity living and continuing to live in Russia—is acquiring these time bombs in the form of people who come back wounded from the front. They are wounded not only by the horrors they’ve seen. These people are deeply emotionally scarred. And many of them are physically injured. They need to be specially adapted. We don’t have the ramps, special wheelchairs, or prosthetics. The shortage of prosthetics in Russia...
Maria Dolgopolova: There’s been a slight increase, but it’s still catastrophically low.
Elena Novikova: Catastrophically low. I recently heard a speech from a Ministry of Health official who talked about the severe shortage of prosthetics and wheelchairs. People are returning from the front without arms or legs because they can't find their place in everyday life. This is a serious problem. These individuals are integrating into our society, and they will live among those who are not ready to accept them. I think every person should be assigned to a psychologist to help them navigate this situation…
Maria Dolgopolova: We also discussed this yesterday, that in different countries, psychologists are protected to varying degrees when working with difficult clients. I'm sure there are countries where psychologists are less protected than in Russia, but it’s also clear that there are countries where they are more protected. And indeed, I think many professionals who realistically assess the situation will try to protect themselves because working in certain circumstances can be self-destructive for a professional.
Elena Novikova: I havn't thought of that; I'm glad you brought it up. Because I’m not in the position of a psychotherapist or counselor working with people returning from the front. But if someone were to come to me, I would look for someone else who could help them instead of me because I’m afraid. I’m really scared, first. I’m not sure I can help, second. I didn’t leave psychotherapy by accident. It’s important to me that the help provided is specific, immediate, and practical. If the state is not parallel to me, if I can’t help someone who is unable to leave the house because they don’t have a prosthetic or wheelchair, and the state is not providing this, I don’t know what I can do. I can only take on the guilt and responsibility for what has happened to this person. But, you know, that’s a burden you can carry for a lifetime. And the feeling of guilt and responsibility already seems to be overwhelming for many of us.
We’ve slightly moved beyond the labor market, but still, many of these are young people, many young men. These are people who return and could participate in the economy. But they’ve fallen out of the economy. And no one will be involved in their adaptation. When the United States experienced the post-Vietnam syndrome, it was a lost generation. Enormous amounts of money were invested in rehabilitating those who fought and returned from the Vietnam War. Not everything was successful. A lot was unsuccessful. But nevertheless, significant efforts were made. At that time, the United States had ended the war. They didn’t need to invest money in continuing the war. But we want to rehabilitate people with funds that are needed to create bombs and missiles. The money is needed to produce something that lasts only a fraction of a minute. And the money that could be used for rehabilitating someone who returns from the front without arms, legs, or with PTSD is being spent on that.
Eleanor Novikova: I remember when we were working with Armenians, the whole world was helping us. The entire world was taking in these earthquake victims. They came, those who had lost arms and legs, who needed surgeries. We worked with a wonderful girl who was an artist and had lost one leg and one arm, her right arm. We met her in Yerevan, and then she was brought here to the Vishnevsky Institute for surgery. And a few years later... I can't recall this story without tears, it's true.
Unfortunately, Nifont was not in Moscow at that time, but he was rarely in Moscow anyway. I got a call from her; she said, “Hello, this is Armine. I’m in Moscow and would like to see you. We’re passing through with my fiancé to visit our relatives.” I met with her. I couldn’t believe she was missing an arm and a leg. The prosthetics were such… She gave me a painting of hers. She had painted Leninakan from memory, as it was, with the mountains. We were sitting in a café, and this German guy looked at her with loving eyes. She was absolutely happy. She had an exhibition of works she did while she was in the hospital. She learned to paint, and the exhibition showcased the works she created progressively… She started painting with her left hand, then with the prosthesis. And this dynamic, how her art returned to her. It was an exhibition of works. She was very happy, received some diploma. She was invited to study at the Academy of Fine Arts, I think, in Hamburg, where she was hospitalized. Now, before her studies and wedding, she was visiting her people in Armenia. She gave me this painting. She was very sorry that Nifont wasn’t there because he had worked more with her in Yerevan, but we worked together. She said, “Oh my God, you brought me back to life.” She had wanted to die. She was in bed, asking us to help her die. She was a happy person; she wanted to go out, get married, and become an artist. The guy was head over heels in love with her. They were glowing with happiness. She had lost her right arm and leg, I don't remember which. And she was a happy person. That’s rehabilitation. It’s not just psychological, but also purely physical and social. There you have it, a happy person.
Can we do something for a guy coming back from the war without an arm and a leg? To make him glow with happiness? To make him an artist?
Maria Dolgopolova: It’s a challenge for current generations.
Eleanor Novikova: Oh, I don’t know. It seems to me that the current generation is concerned with different issues. Issues of survival or adaptation to the new reality we have now. This life and that life look similar on the surface. We are also going through a period of terrible turbulence, a huge increase in requests, high levels of anxiety. Moreover, thankfully, we’ve entered a period where we have practical psychology, and there is an army of psychologists ready to help. But we need to be prepared to live in this enclosed vacuum, to learn from each other, to observe how, on every corner...
Maria Dolgopolova: Peeking through a crack.
Eleanor Novikova: Peeking through a crack, watching how witches chant for wealth, and how shamans treat autism.
Maria Dolgopolova: Well, that’s always been the case. It has always been that way.
Eleanor Novikova: You know, that wasn’t the case in 1991 because practical psychology wasn’t commercialized to the extent it is now. Now, money has a very significant, real importance. It’s not surprising that people go to war, sacrificing their lives, because they are in debt, because they have financial problems, problems of their families. Therefore, I think there is a need to organize this mess. But I am afraid of it now. Because if some mechanism of organization begins, it would be good if it were based on professional and ethical standards, not ideological norms. That’s what I’m afraid of.
Maria Dolgopolova: Yes. We need to wrap up now. Do you have any final words for our listeners of all ages and categories? You can just introduce yourself and say what you do.
Elena Novikova: Well, yes, my name is Elena Novikova. I’m a psychologist as well, your colleague. For 11 years, I worked in psychotherapy. Initially, I worked in a mental health clinic, the first narcological dispensary.
Maria Dolgopolova: Bringing in a huge number of foreigners.
Elena Novikova: Then I worked at the Solovyov Clinic for Neuroses. It was one of the first places with practical psychologists. It was a wonderful place where we did a lot of practical psychology, conducted groups, many groups, 3-4 a day. We had individual clients, and we worked with families.
Then I worked at a consultation center created by Volodya Stolin at Pogodinskaya Street, a psychological center-laboratory helping families with child-rearing issues. It was part of the Psychology Institute in Davydovsky.
That was 11 years. I also went through a lot of training and brought many trainers. But starting in the 1990s, I gradually moved towards business. For the next 30 years, I managed companies that focused on personnel recruitment. I combined this with training related to hiring, managerial skills, and diagnostics. Now I work as an independent consultant since my last company, the British firm Hays, left the Russian market on March 3, 2022, displaying “We stand for Ukraine” and the Ukrainian flag on its website.
My colleagues and employees opened their recruitment agency, which is quite successful, as is my own Ankor, which we established with my husband Igor Khukhrev, who was also a psychologist. Unfortunately, he is no longer with us, but that's another story I don’t want to dwell on.
I wish all of you, first of all, resilience, secondly, patience, thirdly, optimism, and fourthly, the ability to distinguish the wheat from the chaff. I believe this is very important right now. Many events in life challenge us, and it is quite difficult to remain morally and ethically unblemished because you might not even realize how you get involved in certain situations. I’ve experienced this myself, and over the past two years, I’ve been trying to extricate myself from offers to work on tasks that were unclear and unfamiliar to me. I believe a person should always remain a value in each of our eyes, and we should work for the benefit of the person for their happier or improved state of life, but let’s not deal with inhuman tasks. Let others handle those. We should remain with the people. Just as doctors treat and operate on wounded soldiers from the opposite side, psychologists should remain impartial towards whom they work with. A person should be at the forefront. So, I wish you resilience and optimism in this sense. It’s very important. And take care of your mental health. Visit your psychologists, supervisors, keep learning, and support each other. It’s crucial because society is becoming very atomized, falling apart into pieces. So, visit Maria’s channel, unite around it. This sense of community is important. I wish you to maintain that sense of community. It’s very important.
Maria Dolgopolova: Yes, thank you, Lena, for coming and sharing. I’m Maria Dolgopolova, a clinical psychologist, and I run this channel, trying to gather people and information that may be valuable and inspiring. Thank you all for being with us.
Elena Novikova: Yes, thank you.
Maria Dolgopolova: Goodbye.
